Liverpool’s Strength In Depth: Rafa’s £91m Net Spend Analysed

Donavan Ried - December 10th, 2009 at 8:08 pm

Well written article yet again,Aquaman…..

But what as it got to do with the way that Rafa picks/doesn’t pick players or his poor tactics,or playing players out of postion or his lack of man managements skill or the excuses he comes out with for the mistakes he makes, or his inability to learn from those mistakes or his poor use of the squad etc, etc, The time for excuses are done. As soon will be our season……. Rafa killed it

Stillontheperch - December 10th, 2009 at 8:12 pm

Good points well made again. I still not convinced its all down to lack of support. How the squads compare?

1Almunia 2Diaby 3Sagna 4Fabregas 5Vermaelen 6Senderos 7Rosicky 8Nasri 9Eduardo 10Gallas 11Van Persie 12Vela 14Walcott 15Denilson 16Ramsey 17Song Billong 18Silvestre 19Wilshere 20Djourou 21Fabianski 22Clichy 23Arshavin 24Mannone 27Eboue 28Gibbs 30Traore 32Merida 33Barazite 34Bartley 35Coquelin 36Cruise 37Eastmond 41Frimpong 42Gilbert 46Ayling 48Randall 49Shea 51Sunu 52Bendtner 54Watt Freeman

Cavalieri 2Johnson 4Aquilani 5Agger 8Gerrard 9Torres 10Voronin 11Riera 12Aurelio 15Benayoun 16Kyrgiakos 18Kuyt 19Babel 20Mascherano 21Lucas 22Insua 23Carragher 24Ngog 25Reina 26Spearing 27Degen 28Plessis 31El Zhar 32Darby 34Kelly 36Irwin 37Skrtel 38Dossena 39Eccleston 40Ayala 41Hansen 42Gulacsi 47Pacheco Flora Lindfield Mavinga Threlfall

I posted them expecting Arsenals to be far superior. Now having seen them side by side I’m not so sure.

...samlfc.... - December 10th, 2009 at 8:33 pm

Great post again Aquaman i told you that you should be a sports journalist or something along them lines haha
Most of our youngsters are generally good if not fantastic but they can’t properly show that unless Rafa gives them a chance of first team action not just in Carling cup of Fa cup (against lesser teams) but in the Prem aswell.
but i feel as long as Rafa is incharge then i can’t see any of that happening i’m affraid…i know N’gog and Insua are young and came from the reserves/academy’s but two players isn’t enough we need more than that and i believe we have raw talent in the youth system who are trying desperatley hard to get their chance but Rafa isn’t paying attention to them
On a brighter note Aquiani and Pacheo have finally started a game which is great news.

Aquaman - December 10th, 2009 at 8:35 pm

Always glad to open up a few eyes. Thanks as always to all those who commented positively.

Donavan: No argument here. My intentions at the moment are to try and shed Rafa of the accusations that are simply not true. I don’t think that the fans need any help finding things to criticise.

Aquaman - December 10th, 2009 at 8:39 pm

…samlfc…! Welcome back!

I stand by what I’ve said in the past. When things are going sour, playing youngsters is even more of a gamble. Darby has come in for a lot of undeserved stick (at least in my opinion) for making an error that caused us to lose a game that meant nothing! Imagine what would have happened if it had been in the prem?

Retryboy - December 10th, 2009 at 8:43 pm

Theres nothing wrong with the squad. Did any of the teams of Tottenham, villa, Sunderland, lyon, fulham, birmingham, Blackburn, fiorentina cost any more than the teams we put out?? How much did the debrecen team that managed the same amount of goals as us in a champions league campaign cost? Who we struggled to beat twice. The problem is rafa not the squad, his team selections, formations, negative tactics, favourites, Zonal marking, lack of creativity in the team, man management, playing players out of position, getting the best out of the squad thats the problem

Retryboy - December 10th, 2009 at 8:48 pm

God damn moderation lol if that was the premier league aquaman we would have had 10 players back in the box just in case of a mistake! At the very least mascherano would have been on and our centre backs would have been back in position.

...samlfc.... - December 10th, 2009 at 8:48 pm

Yes i’m properly back now!! i made appreances but never made massive essays but my injury has gone and yeah But thanks for the warm welcome Aquaman…..much appreciated

And yes i totally agree with you that Youngsters shouldn’t be rushed into games which actually matter however on the lip side thats when legends are born thoughand many youngsters helped their team win a game or even a trophy and yes Darby cost us the game but hasn’t Gerrard and carrager and even Torres has missed easy chances which could of got us a draw or a win.
yes Darby cost us the game but the stick he is getting is very pathetic in my opinion as every one make a mistake sooner or later!! plus this game enver really mattered either so its even more undeserved.

Aquaman - December 10th, 2009 at 8:54 pm

Hehe. Point taken. I meant what would the reaction from the fans have been if we’d lost a prem game because of the mistake.

Retryboy - December 10th, 2009 at 8:57 pm

Other post just basically seconds what donovan says. There is nothing wrong with the squad quality. Just the way rafa uses it. You can’t say that any of the teams that have beaten us excluding chelsea have cost more than the ones we put out. As for debrecen who scored as many as us in the champions league bet they all cost the same as itandje.

Aquaman - December 10th, 2009 at 10:14 pm

anon. Even if we had all four we would still only be able to play three at most. Since we have three, I think this works out quite nicely. Would love to see them all fit at the same time as Torres, but then I’d love to see a pegasus as well.

dibbler - December 10th, 2009 at 10:41 pm

Really well written article Aquaman and its nice to see the real figures in black and white for once i have tried to work it out in the past but always missed players off. so what i thought and argued many times is true and we are no where near in the league of spending as a lot of other sides in the top half of the league i.e. city,manure,chelski and yids. so in reality we have been over performing over the last few years.
Like i said the other day we need to let rafa see out the season and see where we are then and judge not mid season with some bad injuries but after the league has played itself out.
YNWA.
p.s. nice to see aquilani last night at last a bit of a jamie kneecap about him i think lets hope he wont be as injury prone as him.

Stillontheperch - December 10th, 2009 at 10:46 pm

Didn’t he play for Olimpiakos?

Retryboy - December 10th, 2009 at 10:56 pm

Think the only way we can close the gap is with the young players we can’t compete financially based on income until we get a new stadium. Keep boring everyone with nemeth, pacheco, darby, kelly, ayala doing the same for us as the beckham generation did for united but feel that is the way we can bridge the gap. We win all the youth cups, reserve tournaments regularly we beat united and chelsea to the signature of young players all the time. We have to get them coming through regularly, replacing the poorer squad players and improving off the bench. Its ok complaining that we don’t get as much off the owners as united but they generate £100m a year in income more than us. That is the fault of previous owners more than h&g. The young attacking players won’t come through though while we play with 8 defensive players in a team and form doesn’t apply to people like kuyt. The best 2 attacking youngsters nemeth and pacheco’s best position is as a 2nd striker a partner to a torres big problem in getting them to come through when we don’t play with a partner for him. You can only identify if a player is gonna make it if you play them. El zhar is 23 now and we still haven’t got a clue whether he will be our standard if he’s not can then be moved on.

Reds Lewis - December 11th, 2009 at 12:46 am

Aquaman, you have posted a good article here.
As stated, the years when the yanks have been here have been home to some large spending, however as you have also stated, this is evidently funded by selling almost the same amount.
So instead of improving the squad we are moving the problems round.
This doesnt excuse rafas poor tactical awareness and lack of ability to play an attacking team or creative team…however what it does excuse is the fact that we dont have strength in depth really.
Our team currently can be depicted as a car…..with the engine requiring work.
We replace the radiator with a brand new one, but have to sell the steering wheel to do it……..therefore the problem is moved to somewhere else rather than assessed correctly. I dont think rafas buys in the transfer market have been bad in general, and id go as far to say they are good. obviously with more money he could produce a better team…however his tactics are too defensive.

Aquaman - December 11th, 2009 at 11:11 am

Great post Mark. Glad to her that I’m making some difference with my rambling.

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

actually i think our squad is in pretty good shape and strong enough to win the league., net spend over the last few years has seeming gone done , but the world has been in a recession, i m sure if you compare other teams net spend over the last seven years you would see a similar trend with the glaring exception of manchester city.
arsenal have been selling, utd have been selling
arsenal sold their top striker and top defender last summer,
utd sold their ronaldo , equivalent to our torres and they sold tevez and rreplaced themwith valencia and michael owen
yet arsenal and utd are still above us in the table , they are both still in the champions league both of them having won ther groups,

i generally feel that of you consider and compare our fully fit squad to any others then we are not far behind
no one cdould argue that mikel is better thna lucas or any worse on currently form

in actual fact chelsea are the only team who i woudl say that has a squad strogner than us

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

and now manchester city possibly
but we know that chelsea and city spend megabucks, so we cannot compete financially with them. i wonder if you arent just hoping and praying for some middle east consortium to come in so we can have a huge spending spreee to win the title

because unless that happens all other clubs , outside of chelsea and man city are having to spend to buy.

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

also puzzled by el zhar he came on gainst blackburn played really well with some clever passes for five mins then became a trick pony, can t tell whether there is actually a good player in there or not

Donavan Ried - December 11th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

anonymous – December 11th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Mark what are you talking about? Your points…..

1We regularly finished 15 to 30 pts behind UTD under Houllier. Rafa has steadily closed that gap.

Maybe that has more to do with the so –call smaller clubs taking points off of the so called big four than what your mate Rafa has achieved

2) The term ‘big four’ didn’t exist until Rafa arrived. Remember it was the ‘big three’. We have also been a major ChLG force for some time under Rafa.

The Term Big four came about when Chelsea broke in to the then big three. Arsenal, Man Utd and Liverpool …. Nothing to do with Rafa

3) Aqua Man is correct, net spending is the only important figure. Idiots like Ronnie Whelan and Paul Merson who regularly quote gross spending figures, which is then used by lazy journalists and angry fans, are just being malicious

Rafa has spent almost £280m on players. It doesn’t matter that he has spend a net of £91-£130m. At the end of the day he has replaced players he did not want with players of his choosing…….The money he has had has been plenty. He has replaced all but the core players. But when for quantity over quality in most cases….Net spend means very little if you spend the money on crap

4) Ferguson is one of if not the best manager/s of all time. UTD are one of the richest clubs in the world, far wealthier than Liverpool. In the five years that Rafa has been in charge of Liverpool, Ferguson has spent a similar amount of money on an already superb squad that Rafa has spent improving the very poor squad he inherited. That Rafa recieves anything but priase for even getting close

I’ll grant you some of the players were poor, But the majority of the team that won the champions league. The team that made the greatest come back ever were Houllier players. Since then what exactly has Rafa and Liverpool won?……. Oh a FA Cup …. Hardly a ringing endorsement is it

Donavan Ried - December 11th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

Navin-December 11th, 2009 at 11:19 am ….. who is the “Man Utd Fans” Here?…..

Us for wanting a poor manager out of the club we love?….

OR you for wanting a poor manager kept in charge and wrecking the club we love?…… What do you as then Manc???? ….

Aquaman - December 11th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

kermit, I would agree with you about the most recent season. All of the big english clubs had a quiet transfer window. But remember that Man U splashed 30 mil on Berbatov the year before, Chelsea got Bosingwa, Deco, Anelka etc. I don’t have a problem with us having a quiet window now and then (Man U often have one big wondow followed by a quiet one) but we’ve had 3 quiet years in a row!

Not acceptable.

Aquaman - December 11th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

Hehe, thanks Navin. Glad you enjoyed it.

Donavan: I agree with the points you make except for number 3 (possibly because its got my name in it)

If you look at the strongest first teams that people seem to enjoy posting from time to time, our best 11 is really really good. This would be mine:

………………………..Reina………………………
…Johnson…Carra…..Agger….Aurelio…
…Yossi….Aquilani…..Masch…..Riera…
……………………..Gerrard………………………
………………………Torres……………………….

Rafa’s tactics are not my point. I’m just talking quality. Possibly with G and A swapped but I don’t know the Italian well enough to judge. This is a really really strong team.

I can easily see 6 (possibly even of these players fitting into any of the top four (except possibly Chelsea because they aren’t old enough ). The rest would be happily taken by any Europa league side.

The point of my article though is, because of lack of funds, this is where the quality ends. Imagine this as our bench:

Subs: Kirkland, Skrtel, Riise, Arbeloa, Bellamy, Garcia, Sissoko.

That’s a pretty strong bench, but we had to sell these players (except Skrtel because we haven’t really sold a decent centrback [Sami excluded of course]) in order to get this first team. Throw Babel, Lucas, Kuyt, Insua and N’Gog into the mix and we’d have an incredible squad.

As I said in the article. Money is not the be all and end all of the first team, but it certainly is when it comes to the squad.

Aquaman - December 11th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

hmm. my 8 appears to have turned into a 8)…

Aquaman - December 11th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

a even

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

my best eleven would be slightly different

————————reina———————-
johnson——carra——-agger———insua
————gerrard —-mascherano————
babel————–aquilani—————-yossi
———————–torres————————-

not too much difference just gerrard is a safer bet than aquilani at the moment, and babel playing right wing is better than yossi or kuyt there. yossi seems much more effective laying on the left.

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

i agree that in terms of spending and what he has done with the money available to him , then rafa has done a really good job, but then again i have never once criticised rafa for this and never will i dont think because he is genuinely good at this.

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

i got banned from the lfc forums for saying that i think tomkins has his tongue too fasr up rafa s arsehole to write a decent evaluation of where we are as a club under rafa

Aquaman - December 11th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

Insua over Aurelio? I like the kid, but he’s really got to stop ball watching. Its costing us at a time when we need to be tight.

Agree about Yossi being better on the left, but disagree about Babel. Babel and Yossi should both be stronger on the left as they are similar players (only Yossi actually gets through defenders while Babel runs into them).

Agree about A and G at the moment, but once A is fit then he may be better in midfield.

Aquaman - December 11th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

kermit: haha. To be fair I don’t blame them. I enjoy Tomkin’s articles even if they are incredibly biased. Its just nice to see someone writing good news instead of the usual paper bile.

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

yeah we have a lack of funding veryone knows that , the yanks cant pull money out of thinair either , benitez knows this, i would have kept bellamy riise and warnock, crouch and keane and realistically arbeloa didnt need to be sold for 2.5 million, he did a better job as a centre back even than kyrgiakos has done
and i was never a fan of garcia, i think if i was his team mate i would have killed him several times over.
but i get your point, but what are you hoping for??? money that isnt there , yanks out with mega rich owners in.
if you look at spurs they have a similar spending power to us , they are forced to sell to buy also, the sold berbatov and keane admittedly got him back and bought smart in defoe and kranncjar, they sold bent to fund these moves,
there are only really chelsea and city that can afford not to sell in order to buy

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

i used to enjoy reading tomkins until his last three articles, n which he seems to stand blindly in defense of benitez without ever questioning him directly, he couldbe forgiven his bias while we were winning but when things start to go wrong then you automatically seek answers. and i understand his writings for lfc are club funded and not independent and so he writes from the viewpoint of an employee not a fan, which is why i have lost interest in his articles

Aquaman - December 11th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

I’m not hoping for anything. As I said earlier, my intention is to address some of the more outrageous flak that people are throwing Rafa’s way. I say this often. I’m not pro-Rafa, I’m pro-reason, and I hate seeing people attack managers for something that they’ve done really well.

Also I don’t want mega-rich owners, I just want owners who care. As a foreign supporter I chose to follow LFC and my reason for doing so was the outrageous belief that they had. Laughing at the odds, if you will. If we were to get mega-rich owners then I fear that this may be lost.

Finally, I enjoy Tomkins for the research that he does, even though I don;t always agree with him. He and I are very similar in style, except that (as you say) he is funded by the club. He’s raised some interesting points about the defense which I may use in my next article.

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

i dont think personally think babel should be playing on either wing but up front alongside torres, babels finishing is second to none, he does run into defnders or more he did, i think he has improveded in that this season and he is starting to look a threat any time he plays.
i think babel desrves a real run of games in the side, yes he does sometimes perform poorly when he starts, but i think much like yossi who was often malkigned before the end of last season a run of games in the team could see the best out of babel, and i think babels best could be pretty devastating. he has pace on his side and thta scares defenders, with yossi and kuyt sometimes our build up is too slow and predicatable, for example the man city game , i thought babel had zablayatta shitting himself every time he got the ball , but once he left the field and yossi came on , no discredit to yossi but we just didnt look like we had the beating of them, city coped easily with what we threw at them. yossi s other major flaw is picking the wrong option at times when he is in full flow with the ball at his feet, he should learn sometimes to play the simple ball if the threaded ball isnt on

agree its too early to tell if aquilani will be better deeper or not til he is up to match speed, unfortunately can t see him playing against arsenal, he might get some mins near the end but i wouldnt bet on it. ion aquilanis debut , he seemed to take over the centre of the park for spells , and i would expect this is what he can bring to our team, i watched him closely during the game and he loves being in the centre of the park, and is alwaqys looking up for expansive options in front of him
would love us to sign juan mata at the moment, if he was added to our first team thne i would have my ideal lineup

—————————–mascherano————————————
————aqui/gerrard——————-mata—————————
——————————-aqui/gerrard———————————-
————————–torres———babel——————————-

i ffidn riera so frustrating , at times he can be sensational, but he has had alot inuries and has problems with consistency anyway

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

he did raise some interesting points about the defense, but not ones i hadnt already spotted
we are always more solid with carra and agger as a the centre back pairing, skrtel is aerially woeful, kyrgiakos is a stop gap
but what he fails to mention is that when our main defensive partnership isnt together then we fall to pieces, manchester utd dont. fuck they have fletcher and carrick playing as cbs and they still dont fall apart
in terms of aurelio i have always thought of him as a weak link in our team, he has undobtedly got good footballing skills, but he is slow injury prone, and doesnt provide much of an attacking threat from that side of the field, agreed insua gets caught with his head in the clouds at times, but i would love to see dossena get a real go at left back. he is much more attacking then aurelio. his delivery from crosses is goodhe may be defnesivley lax at times early in his anfied career but i do believe he formed hs reputation a sa wing back not a left back and do also wonder how difficult he found it to settle asa the sole italian.
he played well and with a lot of heart against fiorentina, and this is generally what i like about dossena , he is aggresive, plays with passion and loves getting forward

Aquaman - December 11th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

This is nit-picking and I will address your points as well, but ” Babels finishing is second to none”. His finishing may be good but he has almost no composure. Granted this may be Keane syndrome where he’s so desperate to score that he just can’t (Lucas is another sufferer).

I’d like to see Babel get a run of games as well. I feel the same way about Dossena too, although I think his days are truly numbered (and even if he did work out, we don’t need three leftbacks and certainly not two LB/LWs). My problem though is that when he is given a start then he disappears. I wouldn’t mind if he constantly made the wrong decisions as much, because then at least you can say that he tried.

And when he does try then he tries to do it alone. This is not a decision, this is either greedy, stubborn or dim.

kutex - December 11th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

gr8t post, the man from the waters. thanks for being objective in ur comments. for those of us whose minds are made not to see anything good in Rafa, it’s ur opinion and you all entitled to it. i must say here that Rafa earned his Liverpool’s job, he didn’t get hired by accident and has progressed this club well in my opinion. Retryboy and Donavon Reid have their minds made up not to see anything good in Rafa and it appears nothing can change that. the squad strength has become a matter of much debate now becuase we ain’t doing well at the moment. injury, I’ll keep saying has forced Rafa’s hands a lot so far this season. nothing has really changed in this squad. when Aquilani is fit and the others back, we’ll be firing again. i still have faith in this team and the manager.

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

to anon at 2.01
actua;ly i had exactly the same gripes and frustrations with benitez last season as this season, except this season they have become more magnified. i ve never questioned his usage of money or selection of players to buy, i think he has done really well and in general has taken the club forward from when he first arrived. however it cannot be overlooked that this season has been abysmal, ad in times where he has desperately needed to make changes and try something new and different he has failed to do so. his comments over the last few months have highlighted his inabilty to clearly read a game or see where changes need to be made. eg against lyon when we desperately needed some creative talent had voronin on the field and aqwuilani in the bench, he said lucas and masch were doing well in midfield so we didnt want to change things, he used this to say why aquilani didn t feature, but the problem was most of us would agree with the point the lucas and masch dominated the midfield but never crossed the half way line and a link from midfield to attack ie aquilani was sorely missing, if we can all see what is missing then why can t he???
he has used match fitness as an excuse but then proceeded to play gerrard , a gerrard seriously short of match fitness for four games in an eleven day period starting wiht man city leaving us with apparent contradcitions.

Aquaman - December 11th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

Oh yes, Riera is frustrating alright. I still think he offers us more than Babel though.

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

and even now all of our players seem content that they are fighting for fourth spot. when realistically the y ought n t be content to be second. thats what winners are made of and i fear it just isnt in there

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

wellit shard to judge babel really seeing as he has never played three games in row, he has come on and beaten arsenal in the champions league scored late goals at chelsea arsenal and man utd, and never had a decent run in the team to build his confidence when we all would generally agree that babel is a confidence player, and i dare say most of us were screaming for him to get a run of games in his first season with us. a run of games he is still to get, i have no doubt that after six or seven games in succesion in the starting lineup the potentialof ryan babel would start to come through

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

firstly he is being played left wing when in all honesty my left foot is better than his, so he is left with only one option to come inside onto his right foot
if he played right side he could go outside and cross with his right foot or come inside and lay it off to a team mate, he is wasted on the left wing

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

saying that riera on top form is brilliant, its just his top form is so often not there

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

and finally kuyt to barbados for a three week recouperation holiday

redrob - December 11th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

was riera not a man city reject?

Aquaman - December 11th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

I’ve had a soft spot for Dossena ever since I saw him slide across the goal to save off the line during his first pre-season friendly. I really think he has a lot to offer us. On the other hand, it can;t really be denied that his early performances were woeful. Maybe having Aquilani around will help, and maybe his performance against Fiorentina will give him another chance in the future. I hope so, but I don’t think so.

Aquaman - December 11th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

redrob: Yes he was. Was Shawcross not a man utd reject?

redrob - December 11th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

would the subject of rafa’s spending or seeling come up if we were top of the league, as last year? we have had masive injuries at an important time. i went away for oct and nov, and could not follow much about football other than the results, but did not know exactly what injuries we had. i understand that Gerro,Torres,Benay, babel,aquilani and johnson were, just coming back from injury. i dont know how long for though. i am sure you will correct me if i am wrong.
since defeat by the hands of chelsea we lost to fulham, and sund drew to man city birm and blackburn and had victories against man ut and everton (t f f t). if we turned the tree draws into victories that would be 6 points we would have gained another point from sundeland had not for the misfortune. make 7pts. chelsea are 12 pts ahead we would be on 31 pts, 5 behind chelsea, not bad realy if this was the perfect world. we would be in third posibly still in the champs league.
this season can still change dramatically. i am not saying we can win the league but top four is no where near out of the question. a team with, aquilani gerrard and torres in spells goals, agger carragher and masch shoring up the defence.
we may be off the pace, and yes a better squd would have helped us during these injuries, but all is not lost.

redrob - December 11th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

dossena is no one choice full back for the world champions i rate him too.

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 3:42 pm

i rate dossena also , i think he has a psycho looking head , is really aggresive , great crosser, likes getting forward, i d rather have him with me than against me, i think he has a lot of heart

Topredman - December 11th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

Great article!
We have the numbers in the squad but we don’t have the right blend. You’ll never buy another Torres or Gerrard so looking for replacements when injured is always going to be difficult. However, I don’t see the point in buying players like Keane, Kuyt and Babel and then expecting them to fill in as wingers to supply crosses for Torres. Rafa clearly had a formula at Valencia but it doesn’t work well for us. I think given the players we currently have available, we need to change our style and get the blend right. Our great sides of the past never had the best 11 in the league but collectively it worked. Rafa can’t seem to get that right and until our American friends pay off debts and give out some proper spending money, Rafa has got to make things work better with what he has at his disposal. The season could change and we might close the 12pt gap but not playing like we are at the moment.

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

wow rafa saying both aquilani and torres could start against arsenal , i will be surprised if that happens

Aquaman - December 11th, 2009 at 4:20 pm

Wow is right. Hope Rafa is being sensible. Plus I wonder who will be left out then. If its Lucas, then he must be sick or something. If its Masch then Rafa shouldn’t have played him in midweek. Still, sounds promising. At this rate he might even get match fit!

...samlfc.... - December 11th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

Afternoon all
I hope Lucas is out of the first team as although he isimproving we need an attacking midfielder and thats why we havewAquilani plus Mash is finally finding form again so hopefully now Aquilani is reaching match fitness and Mash finding form and Torres being back we can finally kick start our season……but llike i said hopefully
Rafa would be ill if he left out Lucas though

Topredman - December 11th, 2009 at 5:43 pm

In response to anonymous – December 11th, 2009 at 4:26 pm …
Kuyt is a classic example of someone being played out of position. He was bought as a striker and finds himself ,what you call, a right sided attacker. In my books that’s a right winger. As we don’t have a left sided attacker, it strikes me as a futile option. It’s just another case of Rafa deploying a Valencia lineup that doesn’t work. Kuyt has been woeful of late and would be much better used as a backup striker along with Babel. The problem being we don’t have a natural right winger but we do have a left winger in Riera. It’s all just a mess. It’s these inbalances by playing players out of position that’s costing us points. Like the article said, we’ve got some good players for little money but we haven’t got the right players for some of the 11 positions on the pitch.

Topredman - December 11th, 2009 at 5:54 pm

Here’s another observation about using players properly. Why does Steven Gerrard take the corners? He’s handy with his head and poses a goal threat. Surely he should be in the 18 yard box somewhere, not taking the corner.

Retryboy - December 11th, 2009 at 6:02 pm

Afternoon all- Great posts by donovan, topredman, spota and kermit… The return of mark g oh dear, will try and be nice lol none of the quality players that have gone were sold for monetary reasons aquaman…alonso, keane, bellamy, riise, Warnock, Finnan, murphy, kirkland, Hyppia, arbeloa all for different reasons not one being money most problems with Rafa’s man-management. People are living now off our points total for last season. Where would we have finished if rafa had his way and sold our player of the season before its started and brought in barry. Remember as well we were flying high at the top of the league before rafa got his way and drove out keane the player he didn’t want. Things have also changed this year rafa got his way and brought in 9 backroom staff. People say we don’t see what goes on behind the scenes well 4 of the staff he brought in were fitness related and we have new coaches too. That said this squad has been improved. United’s has weakened, chelsea didn’t make any buys of note, nor did arsenal. The squad was good enough to win the title last year none of the top 3 strengthened we apparently did. 1 quality player out 2 in. Was Rafa’s decision to buy an injured player for £20m he could have got a fit replacement. So people blaming the squad strength while ignoring the constant mistakes of rafa is bordering on ridiculous. The players we all expected to go in the summer and a couple of quality additions weren’t sold and now in january the same lists are there so that isn’t hindsight. Nor is when you look in all the prediction threads for games nobody pairing mascherano and lucas together. Nobody thinking the voronin is the best man in the hole(unless its a deep one) nobody thinking that kuyt has any of the attributes for a lone striker. Nobody thinking 3 creative players is enough in a team. The fans are proved right constantly and rafa is proved wrong. Its supposed to be the other way round!!

Retryboy - December 11th, 2009 at 6:19 pm

Sorry welcome back to samLfc- hope you are well? Don’t think any of us are totally beyond a change of heart we just don’t believe rafa has it in him to change the things that everyone can see need to be changed. If kermit is right and we see aquilani, gerrard, torres in the same team as long as it isn’t countered by leaving out yossi on the left for aurelio will be a step in the right direction. 2 holding midfielders is probably the worst of all his tactics and the thing that spoils the balance the most. Kuyt on the right also spoils the balance and babel would give 10 times more but still its seeing teams constantly put out with no creativity that i can’t stand. Watching us struggle to break down the Blackburns and debrecens of the world. We are liverpool we should have the highest of expectations. Benitez manages to keep those expectations mightily low anything less than a victory at arsenal with a good performance he should be gone. Loyalty is great but its not worth the years in the doldrums that missing out on the top four would bring and a change of manager could avoid.

kermit - December 11th, 2009 at 7:44 pm

riera isnt fit
and i m amazed to say that rafa is considering starting aquilani and torres against arsenal, amazed

Ryan Babel - December 11th, 2009 at 9:07 pm

was it just me or did pacheco do more in the 15 minutes he was on then kuyt did in the 75 mins. would like him to be on the bench in future and if we play a weaker side in the fa cup then id like to only try a few players like kust Kelly(CB),Pacheco(CAM) and Eccleston(st) but then play experienced players aswell.

Donavan Ried - December 12th, 2009 at 1:47 am

1. anonymous – December 11th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
A lot of what Donovan and RetryBoy are saying are opinions – I do not see the facts guys. E.g.

“Negative tactics – where? I’ve seen matches where our centrebacks play most of the match in the opposition half”…….

Last season against 31st Aug 2008 Aston Villa at Villa Park…… the game was ours for the taking, Villa look like they had nothing. Rafa knew earlier that draw Chelsea had drawn and a win would see us 2 points clear of them at the top. And instead of setting out a team to win the game, he set one out not to lose the game. Just hwo many times have we seen Rafa do this?….. Or playing ” defensive midfielders when there was no need?…..

“Players out of position? Who? Kuyt? If so, he plays as a right sided forward – not a winger. 16 goals last season, his best.”

What are you say that Rafa plays Kuyt in a 4-3-3? Ryan Babel on the Left. Kuyt as a Right winger

“Net spend is important. If you don’t factor it in, you are assuming Rafa has a hypothetical amount to spend on the whole squad. He hasn’t, as Aquaman points out”.

Rafa Has replaced players. The fact that he has sold player for profit or at a lose is irrelevant …i.e. If he get rid of 30 players and brings in 30 players of his choice you can’t say that he has only spent X amount of money that is why the squad is not that good. RAFA CHOSE THE PLAYERS there for how ever poor the squads is it is down to him

“Zonal marking – again, this is a myth. As Gordan Strachan says, it’s bad marking that lets in goals not zonal marking. No one makes any fuss when man marking lets a goal in, or teams like Barca use zonal marking! There are stats, that show, over time, zonal marking results in less goals being conceded from set pieces”.

Funny then that most of our goal conceded should come from set pieces were we have static defenders trying to out jump players taking a run up

“Interesting that we now spend a little more than Arsenal and have finished just below or mostly higher than them recently.”

Arsenal has consistently brought in better players than us with one or two exception spending less money than us and paying off the debt for the Emirates and as a result are now able to spend as much if not more than Man Utd if they so wish ..

“And probably the most important factor is, Rafa has had to play catch up with Utd, Chelski and Arsenal when he arrived. So to compare spending is not giving the whole picture as Liverpool’s squad was not as strong as the other 3″

Maybe if Rafa would have gone for quality over quaintly and bring the youth through our squad would be as strong as the other three.

“I always see reasoning in everything Rafa does.”……

Well you must be the only one out there who can

Mike

...samlfc.... - December 12th, 2009 at 11:03 am

Thanks Retryboy and yes i’m well as my injury has almost gone so its good news…….great news wold b us defeating Arsenal a match i always enjoy whether we win or lose

Donavan Ried - December 12th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

Welcome back …samlfc….

...samlfc.... - December 12th, 2009 at 1:33 pm

Glad to be Back Donavan

Donavan Ried - December 12th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

Mark- December 11th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

OK Mark I will stick to the facts…..”and we were finishing 30pts behind the league champions at times under .”

Seem to remember us finishing some 37 points behind the league winner in 04/05 season under Rafa……

“Remeber all the UEFA cup nights at Anfield???” …….

Yes I Remember those….The Champions League night maybe better in atmosphere
But how many CL Finales have we played in and how man have we won?….

AS for the “I’m sorry but the League is the only true barometer of a team’s quality ” ……

Yes and both manager achieved a second place and not much else. And Liverpool sacked Houllier, yet he won us more trophies than Rafa

“I stand by my point about the Big 4. It was Chelsea, Arsenal and Utd. We weren’t even contenders.”

Since the start of the EPL Liverpool Fc has been in a top 4 spot a total of 13 times out from 18. Arsenal 14 from 18…. Man Utd 16 from and Chelsea 9 from 18 you might say that “We weren’t even contenders” but the facts says other wise

“As for net spending, all managers make mistakes. Ferguson has made many but he has the luxury of a a large transfer kitty so they are less noticeable. He can cover the mup by buying again. Rafa has to wheel and deal and of course sometimes he will get it wrong and they are more costly. But he has made many excellent signings.”

The only truth in that little piece is that all managers make mistake ….. Rafa make more mistakes when buy players not because of wheeling and dealing, because of his refusal to look at players from the Bundesliga. A league that is more closer to the Premier league that any other on the continent of Europe than any other
“I encourage you again to try and see the bigger picture. Rafa has brought the club forward, is bringing the club forward and will continue to do so.”…..

I think that Rafa has brought the club forward, were I disagree with you is were you say “is bringing the club forward and will continue to do so” Rafa has done what he can and is simple not good enough to take us to the next level

“If you continue to take a short term view then you will never get consitency”

Funny that you should talk about consistency. As it is the really thing that he does not offer us, unless you talk about his consistence negative ways or lack of man- management skills ……

mark g - December 12th, 2009 at 6:51 pm

Football rules!!!!, great games so far today, kudos to Everton, Wolves, Bolton for their never say die attitude and for making it possible for us to stay in hunt for …..what really? Championship, fourth spot, or anything in between seems to be fully possible (subject to our performances), regrettable we were not in a position to take advantage of it so far. I am glad Benitez and Aquaman and Co. shed some light on circumstances of our trades that were, could have been or should have taken place.
With 300M C$, Gillette made on his investment in Montreal Canadiens, it is time for him to step to the plate, he can lend the money to the club at good rates (Abramovitch style), reduce the RBS loan to minimize the interest on it, buy out Hicks totally or at least partly or do a combination of the above. Or get the hell out of LFC and sell the club to people that can.
I am afraid it is unlikely to happen, as I stated here many times before, LFC purchase was a speculative investment for H&G, and they like the leverage it gives them , with so little money down. So the lack of comitment by the owners will continue to limit our prospects for the time being.
Good luck to our boys (including the staff) tomorrow!

redrob - December 13th, 2009 at 12:49 am

maybe even kuyt give a rest again, with gerrard on the right. this would noy be ideal but then if he decides to put aquilani in the gerrard role it would still be a great team. although gerrard plays better in the middle, it would fit the team, because he is the best r mid in the squad.
but

masch
kuyt gerrard aqua riera
torres
fill the midfield with workers and still gerreard and aquilani to support el nino up front. thus would be a great team.

Donavan Ried - December 13th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

We here we are about an hour and a half before kick off….. I am optimist … As Retryboy said the tempo of the game that Arsenal plays will suit us. Don’t want to see two defensive midfielders…. don’t mind seeing Kuyt on the right if both Gerrard and Aquilani are in the middle…… Just hope Rafa can see it this way…LOL ……Chelsea and Man City both 3-3 draws, Tottenham, Man Utd lose, only Villia won( Beating Man Utd) a Draw would be a good result, a win even better ….

...samlfc.... - December 13th, 2009 at 4:19 pm

Arsenal always brings the best out of Liverpool and Vise-versa so this will be a game i will enjoy whatever the outcome……..althought a win could be nice
Aquilani should play the whole match or near enough as i think this is the perfect game to show what he is really made off as Arsenal doesn’t hack their way to victory.

kermit - December 13th, 2009 at 4:34 pm

well no real surprises in the team sheet then
juts as we all expected

Retryboy - December 13th, 2009 at 4:37 pm

Afternoon donovan and sam- think the results yesterday have given everyone optimism. I still see it as a must win. We have 6 teams above us we can catch up on 5 of them in one hit. Last week we missed the opportunity by again being too defensive was saying to aquaman the squad has to have had a lift from the results, aquilani and torres return. Benitez has to give the fans a lift by playing mascherano, gerrard, aquilani, benayoun, torres and kuyt (would prefer babel if fit or even johnson with darby at RB) but wouldn’t argue at kuyt if we only have one holding midfielder! Come on boys!!

kermit - December 13th, 2009 at 4:37 pm

didnt think there would be , had figured it d be the same boring lineup. but not gonna complain yet anyway

kermit - December 13th, 2009 at 4:41 pm

i=why didnt we play gerrard in the right against mikel fucking silvestre , the guy is brutal, i stick with my opinion that lucas is useful for this game, but gerrard right aquilani central and kuty on holiday
last time i criticised silvesre he scored two against us for utd, so i ll keep kuyt bashing bashing today maybe he ll hit a hattrick

Warren Bloggs - December 13th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

The team is:

……………………………………………….REINA……………………………………………….
JOHNSON…………………..CARRA……………….AGGER……………AURELIO
………………………………LUCAS………………MASCHERANO………………………
KUYT……………………………………..GERRARD……………………..BENAYOUN
……………………………………………………..TORRES…………………………………….

I would like to see Aquilani and Ngog at some point in the game Especially if we are a goal or more up.

kermit - December 13th, 2009 at 4:44 pm

ooops silvestre isnt playing traore is

kermit - December 13th, 2009 at 4:47 pm

i would expect to see aquilani at some point during this game

Retryboy - December 13th, 2009 at 4:51 pm

See his negativity has spread to the bench now as well 5 defenders! No riera, el zhar, babel probably injured but why only ngog and aquilani as attacking subs Grrrr!

kermit - December 13th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

el zhar is woeful, babel is injured , dunno about riera but he wasnt in the squad against fiorentina

kermit - December 13th, 2009 at 4:58 pm

i want this game played at a million miles an hour thats the best way for us to beat arsenal by keeping the tempo high

kermit - December 13th, 2009 at 5:08 pm

firsdt attack and first real point of note was gerrard looking for players in the box and there was only fernando there, midfield slow in supporting

kermit - December 13th, 2009 at 5:52 pm

the most blatant penalty i have ever seen, dirk is playing well lucas is playing well , the whole team are playing well , yossi isnt as involved as i would like, we are deservedly in the lead.

RyanO - December 13th, 2009 at 6:01 pm

Agreed, kermit, that was a stonewall penalty, but we already know Webb is fucking horrible so not a surprise. Brilliant first half from us, great pace and the defense has been very solid. Dirk Kuyt is just beautiful, it’s as if the more the supporters get down on him, the more likely he will SCORE!

kermit - December 13th, 2009 at 6:19 pm

i missed the goal we conceded but we have noticeably allowed arsenal back into the game even befre the goal
okay then lets all abuse dirk more, arsenal definately on top now. 2-1 down now rafa what you gonna do???

kermit - December 13th, 2009 at 6:26 pm

aquilani for masch this is a brave move

kermit - December 13th, 2009 at 6:28 pm

i wouldnt have started aquilani in this game, he wouldnt have been fit enough to last the pace

spota - December 13th, 2009 at 6:41 pm

hahahahaha ya little cunt using my name. nar wok i got pissed last night so got up l8. oh yeah kermits wright aquillani should defo ov started this game . not be baught on at 2 1 down

...samlfc.... - December 13th, 2009 at 6:42 pm

Typical losing a 1 goal lead……I would of played it safe and brought on Aquilani for Lucas as Masch is better….unless Masch is injured.

kermit - December 13th, 2009 at 6:59 pm

samlfc lucas had a better game than masch today, can t really fault rafa today, just not good enough, end of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

foolishly threw the game away in ten mins after half time, how did arsenal win this game, they had one shot on goal all game. tores will be fitter , the pace of the game was too much for aquilani when he came on, i ll judge him when he starts a game and gets to dictate the tempo of it. yossi was our most disappointing player today. , heads went down way too easily, we gave up the lead way too easily.

bring on the january window because something is needed.

spota - December 13th, 2009 at 7:04 pm

aquillani looks injured . i hope knot . gutted. but thats 3 wins in 15 know lads . were just not good enuff. i was suprised we even took the lead. were to defensive. we look hurried on the ball. even at 1-0 we never looked comfertable.im just glad i never went today. im losing patience fast. wots with ngog trying to challenge his own players. this is the worst liverpool side i have seen for years.clear the dead wood clear the manager and lets start again. before anymore top players want to leave as well. and lets face it we dont have many. today was a chance to catch the pack. even a point is something. listen to me begging 4 draws at home and im a liverpool fan not a trammere fan . i cant see were a good run ov results are coming from if anybody else can see it please enlighten me. we look fuckin awful at the moment regardless of todays defeat. we no how bad that was all ready. please hicks and gillet pay the spaniard off sharpish so we can at least have a go in the fa cup and salvage sum redman pride !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RyanO - December 13th, 2009 at 7:08 pm

What else can be said, we are stagnant. The team is making no progress. They played a wonderful first half and then we got more of the same. Johnson was very unlucky on the OG, but played the ball Arshavin scored on horrible. We just have nothing in the way of luck this season. I know everyone wants new players, but new players wouldn’t matter with the playing style or lack of it that we display game after game.

dave - December 13th, 2009 at 7:12 pm

benayoun was really poor,agree with you kermit heads went down after the goals,don’t know what johnson was doing for the o.g.i think everything rafa did was right,mascherano had too go off due to a slight injury and was a risk with being on a yellow,i think we need a bit more creativity in midfield,a pacy tricky winger and a target man.if we get them i think we will be fine,just in need of a win to gain confidence and to get players back to fitness.

dave - December 13th, 2009 at 7:14 pm

oh yeah gerraed should of had a penalty in the first half and riera is injured retryboy

Donavan Ried - December 13th, 2009 at 8:29 pm

Evening Retryboy…
Retryboy – December 13th, 2009 at 4:51 pm ….. He has no clue how to pick the back up to the starting 11 does he ……

Topredman - December 13th, 2009 at 9:44 pm

According to Rafa, this was the start of the season apparently. This is how it’s gone so far this season. Gerrard n Torres fit but no goals, Lucas crab like in midfield, Johnson makes a mess and scores in his own net and then Aquilani comes on and starts telling the ref to give an Arsenal player a second booking. Meanwhile, on the goal tally at 94 mins it’s 1 to Liverpool and 2 to Arsenal. Can’t wait for the rest of the season to unfold Rafa. I am beginning to lose patience with our players. I say this because there is a lot of hoping for free kicks and playing for the decision and yes this includes you Steven Gerrard. This happens when you are clutching at straws, hoping to gain an advantage. I don’t see much in the way of football. Did pass n move get banned from the game? This isn’t the Liverpool way. These are the actions of a team in trouble. They seem happy to score a goal and then fall apart when the opposition score, or in our case our own player. Rafa, if you are reading this, or for that fact any member of the team, you have to play every game like the Man U game. You play to win and to humiliate. There is an emblem on your shirt that signifies 5 times European Champions. It doesn’t say take the cash and play out 90 mins. Now get out there and win. Oh and Rafa…. if you are reading this, you need to drop Lucas, put Stevie back in midfield with Masch and play Yossi off of Torres. Have you got the picture yet?